Equus-Assist

03/03/2022

Give us a Clue ! 🤷‍♀️

Now, a lot of you won’t have seen the above TV show as it was last aired in 1992. However, I’m sure you will be familiar with the game ‘ charades’, on which the show was based. The game uses mime rather than words to demonstrate a name, phrase, book, film etc

Sounds easy, but sometimes what you think you are conveying is being interpreted completely differently by your partner. Or worse, your partner has no idea WHAT you are trying to convey!
It can be a very frustrating game at times for both parties!

The person miming is convinced they are giving clear/obvious signals 😇 and the other party struggles to get anything from it whatsoever. 🤦‍♀️

The more the person guesses the wrong thing the more manic the mimer becomes. 🤪

Clearly the other person is stupid because what is being mimed is SO OBVIOUS! 😡

Unfortunately, this same scenario is sometimes played out when people try to communicate with their four legged friends. They think they are being obvious in their request and the horse is being stupid for not understanding. The horse is also giving signals of its own which are in turn not being understood by the handler.

It would be funny if it were just a game with no consequences. No anger or anxiety involved.

Sadly, this is generally not the case. Frustration at not being understood and not understanding leads human and horse to behave in unacceptable ways.

The teams in the TV show who did the best, were the ones where the person giving the clues was not only able to give clear signals but could adapt those signals if they were proving too difficult to decipher.

When we are working with our horses we need to be clear with our requests and consistent in how we deliver these requests.

We also need to be able to recognise when these signals are either too difficult for the horse to understand or are ambiguous and the horse it taking it to mean something else.

This morning I worked with a lovely lady, who I have worked with before, with one of her new four legged friends. This lady has said on numerous occasions, “ well I never thought he would do that” or “ I don’t know how you got him to do that”( in the nicest possible way of course) She is always very proud of her horses after our sessions and I like that I can make her feel that way.
It’s as if she thinks I am a magician or have secret horsey powers, when in reality all I do is ask for specific things in a very clear and consistent manner. This makes life very easy and pleasant for me and also for her horses, which is what I am sure we all aim for.

So, next time you are trying to communicate with your horses, dogs and even people, make sure you are being clear in what you are trying to convey. And probably more importantly, make sure they are understanding!! 😊👍

09/09/2021

Hello to all those who have been reading my posts. This is my first post since June 2020 and I was very surprised when I realised that as it didn't feel that long. Unfortunately, like a lot of others during these unusual times, my motivation took a real nosedive and so my ramblings dried up! But! Here I go again!

What’s in a name?

The words we use to describe someone to others, or the way we think about someone, can affect the way in which we and others treat them.

For example, if we said:
“She is such a sweetheart, very kind, would do anything for anyone.”
You might conjure up a picture of a dear, sweet lady with a smiley face waiting to see how she can help you. You would, no doubt, approach her feeling very relaxed and happy and speak to her in a soft, friendly voice whilst smiling a lot.

If we said:
“She is a right moaner, miserable, nothing is ever good enough.”
This might conjure up a person who really doesn’t seem interested in helping, and definitely does not smile.
You might approach this person in a not quite so happy, confident manner, speaking in a monotone voice and not smiling

If we said:
“She is such a cow, unhelpful and very aggressive.”
This might conjure up a picture of a very angry person, scowling and speaking loudly.
You would probably be in, or close to fighting mode from the start with this person! Possibly very tight mouthed, making aggressive gestures and speaking loudly.

Now it might be that all of these people are very nice and kind and helpful and, if we approach them in the right way, they remain like that. If we get aggressive or loud then it is no surprise that others start to become aggressive back. Especially if we are expecting them to do something for us! They end up mirroring us, so what we give out, we get back.

Animals are just the same and react in the same way.

If you tell someone a horse is ‘a right cow-bag, has no respect and gets aggressive’ it’s likely that they will anticipate this is how the animal will behave and so will start off in aggressive mode themselves.

The whole thing will quickly go downhill as both horse and handler will be reacting to the actions of the other- in a negative way. The situation will be a self-fulfilling prophecy, handler anticipating bad behaviour and possibly inadvertently initiating it.

We can probably all recall times when we have managed to get a horse to do a particular thing only to be told afterwards how unusual it is because the horse normally does x,y,or,z to avoid it. This obviously says more about the way the horse is handled than the horse itself.

Remember- People (and animals) will always live down to your expectations. Or , as Steven Young (Author) wrote: People live up to your expectations, not their potential.

This reminds me of a little pony at a riding holiday centre I once worked at. He wasn’t a fine, dainty pony, but a chunky workman like boy and was known for his lack of enthusiasm…………for anything!
The youngsters who stayed on holiday soon picked up on the fact that he wasn’t the sparkiest pony around. Those going home after their holiday were always gleefully passing on to the newcomers that nobody would want X as he was useless, stubborn, lazy, stupid etc. Inevitably, whoever was assigned X visibly wilted when it was announced, and their partnership always started off on the wrong foot.
The thing was, this pony wasn’t useless, stubborn, lazy or stupid and could quite easily do everything the others could. The sad fact was, he was never given the chance so he never saw a reason to try.

I quickly realised this so set about changing his perspective of people, and them about him.

In my lessons, no one was allowed to carry a whip but had to use their riding skills to get their pony to comply. Lots of praise for ponies during and at the end of the lesson was mandatory. No one was allowed to use unkind words to describe their pony if they had difficulty performing a certain task. I have to admit that a number of the youngsters found this one a challenge!

Once dismounted saddles were taken off and carried by the rider as they led the ponies back up to the yard.

Slowly, over the length of their stay, the youngsters attitude to their ponies changed and they were quick to praise and request things from their ponies rather than demand or just expect. No more booting with legs and smacking with crops from the rider so far more comfortable for the pony. A nice, steady, reliable pony for the rider. What’s not to like.

The last day of the holiday was always a fun day with clear round jumping, a handy pony course and a few gymkhana games. The rider of X always had a wobble the night before. Yes, the pony went forward on hacks and even did as he was asked in lessons but he wasn’t sparky or energetic enough to jump or do games………was he?

I had been working with X for a little while so he was used to my voice and I always paid him lots of attention which he enjoyed. He was so responsive to my voice that I could run alongside him asking him to jump small jumps, turn left, right, speed up, slow down and he would. He even seemed to enjoy it!

I would show this to his rider the day before the fun day and they were always amazed at what their little pony was doing. I explained to them that he was happy to do whatever they wanted to if he felt they genuinely liked him and treated him properly. It had to be a two way street, a partnership. He wasn’t going to try if all everyone did was push and pull him around.

The youngsters suddenly got it and at the fun day they always managed to get some rosettes to take home. I always ran round the little jumping course with them just to make sure they got at least one! This helped them appreciate him and they generally did well in the handy pony, as he was so steady. Any gymkhana race that involved a pony standing still while you got on was his speciality!

The youngsters opinion of him may have only been changed at the last minute but hopefully they took the message home and made sure they treated any other horses ( or people come to that) fairly and without any pre-conceptions.

A quote from Yolanda Hadid sums it up nicely I think – Some people come into our lives as a blessing, while others come into our lives as a lesson, so love them for who they are instead of judging them for who they are not.

23/01/2021

13/06/2020

Parent Syndrome

(Please note, this is my made up name for the situation and is not to be confused with Parental Alienation Syndrome which is something completely different)

As most of us are still in lockdown, of one form or another, it made me think about all the home schooling of children that has been taken on by their family.

Lots of us who are parents will know that it is far less stressful to try and teach someone else’s child to do something than it is to teach our own.

It seems we all expect more of our own children than that of others, which is sort of self defeating.

I’m not sure what it is but I know there is a certain expectation when teaching your own child and, if that belief is not met, frustration sets in.

This leads us to become stressed and inevitably we do to them what we do to people who speak another language. We say the same thing repeatedly getting louder each time!

The stress we create is picked up by the child, which makes it hard for them to totally concentrate, and their attempts to understand what we are trying to convey become rushed, guesswork taking the place of rational thought.

A calmer demeanour offering different approaches to the subject, allowing the student time to process the information, is what we all know should take place…………. but invariably it doesn’t.

Unfortunately, this syndrome doesn’t seem confined to our offspring as lots of owners find the same when working with their horses. They so want them to do well that, when it takes longer for their four legged friends to catch on to something or exhibit the required behaviour, they revert to acting like parents.

The signals given to their horses are one of stress and anxiety which only makes their learning ability diminish. Stressed people or animals do not process information efficiently.

The stress caused by our expectation levels, possibly being a little too high, not only stop our pupil from interpreting what it is we are trying to convey but also make us less receptive to any signals they may be giving us.

It is important that we know that the horse has completely understood what is being asked and if not to take a step back to a level that they do understand.

Any learning must be done in small increments, like building a wall, each brick supporting the others. Any gaps will make the wall unsteady and in times of stress it will fall down.

If something we are trying to do is, for whatever reason, not happening the best course of action is to default to something we know we can do and finish the session.

To carry on whilst not getting the required outcome is futile as the stress in both horse and handler will gradually increase until neither is listening to the other.

I’m sure we have all seen horses behaving in a relaxed manner, and complete tasks their owners said they would not do, when the owner has not been present. The lack of stress in the situation has made it easier for the horse to process what is being asked and to concentrate on the task in hand.

Sometimes we make things worse because we remember how they have reacted in the past to things like the farrier or the vet so our anticipation of that behaviour being repeated is what causes us stress which we then pass on to the horse.

And lastly, we must always make sure we have enough time to spend on the task so we do not start off feeling under undue pressure. We only pass this on to the horse so the task will generally take much longer, and be more fraught than it need be.

This is true of children too.

Ask any parent who has struggled with the morning routine, before lockdown, knowing that there is an important job to do at work so they mustn’t be late in.
Their normally obliging, if a little slow, children suddenly become the most obstructive people in the world for no apparent reason!
The school run invariably ends up either with angry words being exchanged or in complete fuming silence and said parent arriving at work totally discombobulated!!

So whether it be children or animals you are teaching………………………..Happy Home Schooling!

19/04/2020

I started writing this a while ago but thought now was the right time to post it, as people will be more able to relate to it.
Social distancing is a new thing to us and something a lot of people are having trouble dealing with, but for a lot of horses this is their life.

For a long time now I have seen horses grazing in small (and I mean small) square areas of green. Their field having been fenced off with electric tape to leave lots of squares each with a single or perhaps two horses in. The space is generally too small with no shelter from heat, flies, cold, wind or rain. There is no companion to doze, graze, groom or keep flies off with. No bonds are made with other horses and no proper lying down rest as there is no-one to keep guard.

For a lot of these horses their days will consist of going from a small box to a slightly bigger space for a few hours and then back to a small box. Occasionally they may go on a hack, in the school for groundwork, jumping etc but practically always they will be on their own.

What is all that about?

I wondered, is it to stop horses injuring one another to save vet bills and rising insurance costs? Is it so everyone only picks up their own horses poo?
I couldn’t believe these problems were so great that people resorted to keeping their beloved animals in practical solitary confinement. So, I googled it.

I found a thread going back to 2011 talking about the same thing and it seems I was right. The whole thread was about bully horses, injuries and poo picking!!

Most of the answers from those who supported individual turnout said they preferred it often more because the humans can’t get along and work together than because of discord among the horses.

If it’s because people argue about poo picking why not employ someone to do it and factor the cost into the livery charge? Or purchase a paddock vacuum cleaner to take the hard work out of it which may make more people happy to do it. Again the cost could be factored in. Or, the yard owner could take control of their clients and draw up a rota for their fields whereby everyone has an allocated day for cleaning up. The horses shouldn’t be the ones to suffer because intelligent humans can’t get their act together.

Some people made statements like – My horse seems to cope with it OK.
Mmm, seems to cope.

Dictionary meaning of seems – give the impression of being something

Dictionary meaning of cope – to struggle or deal, especially on fairly even terms or with some degree of success. To face and deal with responsibilities, problems or difficulties especially successfully or in a calm or adequate manner.

So the horse gives the impression of dealing with the situation in a calm or adequate manner.

This is a bit different to the meaning of your horse being happy, which is described as ‘ enjoying or characterised by well being and contentment.’

Some people say our horses are so far removed from the original wild animals that we can’t say they react to or need the same things.
Well we are very far removed from the caveman but we still sleep when it is dark and work when it is light. Studies on people who work permanent nights show them to suffer significant stress as they try to ‘cope’ with working against their bodies natural rhythm.

An awful lot of us are still worried about being in the dark, thunder and lightning, strong winds and small creatures like spiders!

Our basic needs are still the same, food, water, safety ,shelter and companionship. And we are afraid of death. Funnily enough, all of this applies to horses too.

Perhaps now that we are all in lockdown, people who are in favour of keeping their horses in these small spaces, devoid of close company etc can start to appreciate how their horses are feeling. Unable to travel when and there we want to, no physical contact with friends and family, having to stay in a box and only allowed out for limited time, sometimes only to perform tasks.

Of course, the majority of us are dealing with lockdown, some however, are struggling with their mental health. Even those of us who are dealing with it would not describe ourselves as being happy.

It is my hope that out of this horrendous time we are all experiencing, some good will come.

One thing I hope is that people who own horses and those who run livery yards/riding schools etc will think again about the living conditions of the animals in their care. Horses are not only herd animals, needing to be able to move freely and socialise but also prey animals who need the feeling of security that living in a herd brings.

I hope you all stay safe and well and wish for a better, brighter future for you and your horse.

14/03/2020

Hello to all those who started to follow my posts. Sorry it's been a while but real life is what happens when you have other plans!!
For those new to my posts I try and cover items in a way that perhaps gives the horses perspective on things we do. I'm certainly not trying to humanise them as we are two entirely different beings.I do believe,however, that we are both capable of feeling fear, pain, cold, hunger, confusion, panic and hopelessness as well as feelings of security, affection and belonging.

What is bomb proof?
Dictionary: In the case of a tame animal, a horse, is not easily alarmed by unusual circumstances.

Not easily alarmed by unusual circumstances………………………………….
How do you define that? What is usual for one horse is unusual for another!
I say that because my newish mare, Grace, was used to living in a field with lots of companions, being ridden by youngsters at weekends. Apart from that , I knew nothing about her, but was assured she was a good girl and favourite among the youngsters. She was used to being ridden in a very built up area and said to be good in traffic.
As we hacked down the narrow country lanes one day, we met the bin lorry three times!! The sight of a large wagon, yellow lights flashing, making its way towards you could be very scary. Grace took it all in her stride standing quietly while the monster truck passed by. Yes, she is good in traffic, and to be fair, she is a very honest, brave lady who tries her best to comply with my requests whether ridden or handled. Sometimes she needs convincing as her new home is nothing like her old, and sometimes scary.
At first, I found handling her outside the box was easier for her to cope with, even brushing her indoors caused her to become defensive, turning away from me. Picking out her feet was difficult as she would give the fronts immediately wanting them back, kicking out with her hinds when I even approached them. For a couple of weeks I did everything I needed to do, handling wise, while she was outside and left her to just to eat when in her box.
She slowly got used to me being in the box with her and I can now groom, pick out feet, put sun block and fly spray on with no panic. She also knows to stay in her box even if the door is open until I invite her out. She is a very quick learner and I appreciate the effort she makes to understand what I want.
Grace lives on a farm with one friend, surrounded by narrow lanes, high hedges and lots of scary sheep! I gave Grace a few weeks to settle in to her new surroundings and new friend only bringing her in , grooming and turning out. Next, a friend and I led her out round the corner for a short distance and gradually increased that distance until she went all the way to the junction. The sheep, in the fields, both fascinated and scared the pants off her at the same time but as long as I walked with her she would risk it. We then started hacking out alone, gradually going further and further. She was always reluctant to go along the scary part of the lane but relaxed once we had turned the corner. We also hacked the other way out of the farm so she could get used to that route too.
One day though the scary part of the lane became a problem and she decided she would rather not. She did nothing crazy or try to dislodge me, merely walked backwards very quickly, away from the lane. I asked three times and she tried three times to get round the corner, bottling it at the last minute. I understood her reluctance, the lane is narrow and the hedges had grown tall and thick which made it even more tunnel like. As the end of the road bends sharply to the left it looks as if you are walking into a dead end. The fact she was enclosed on both sides, with no way out ahead and deadly sheep lurking where she couldn’t see them was too much.
Lots of people will say I did the wrong thing, but I turned her round asking her to go the other way. If she was merely refusing to go out she would try and go home, but she didn’t. She marched along and we had a wonderful ride, even passing some pigs at a junction on the way home. Being on the way home helped of course but she still had to summon up the courage as she had never seen or heard pigs before.
Now I believe that day I proved to her that I will listen to her concerns and try and address them. I could have spent hours trying to force her round the corner, or resorted to a whip (which I don’t carry) but all that would have done would wear us both out and cause damage to the relationship I was trying to develop.
What I did do, for the next seven days however, was to walk her out in hand along that lane just as I had when she first arrived. This time though I encouraged her to stop and graze next to the hedges so she could realise it wasn’t a bad place. Once passed the sheep she was allowed to graze again before making the journey back . All the time I praised and spoke to her in a calm and relaxed manner so she would see I wasn’t worried about being there.
I then forgot about the lane and hacked out the other way for a couple of weeks. One day when we were going out she offered to turn towards the scary lane, but I asked her to go the other way. Her offer was good enough that day.
A few days later, I did ask her to hack down the scary lane and, with a millisecond of hesitation, she walked on relaxed and unhurried.
We have since done many exciting or sometimes scary things together but have always overcome any anxiety or fear by working together. She lets me know if she needs a bit of backup, which she gets, and I show my appreciation when she overcomes anything she finds unusual.
What I am trying to say is, a horse is a horse and will be frightened of things on occasions. It is how we deal with it makes the difference between the horse learning to accept it or not.

Grace is not now easily alarmed by unusual circumstances, as my little poem shows.

My little cream cob and I went out to find somewhere new to explore
I said I’ve found a brand new path we’ve never been down before
So off we set all cheerful and feeling quite excited
Our inner fearless Bear Grylls having been ignited
My little friend took it all in her stride and boldly marched along
And I full of the joys of spring sang her a little song
The end of the track I assumed would
Bring us back out where I thought it should
My little mare worked hard and then worked harder still
The track was steep and winding never ending up the hill!
And at the top what did we spy…………………..
Large machines ,that were built to fly!
Even though a little scared she kept her trust in me
And kept on going forward, ‘til the tracks end we could see
Homeward bound, we’re on our way
…………..Or maybe it’s the other way?
A passing driver helped us out and told us where we were
Not where I’d expected so I told my little mare
Sorry…….. but I much regret
We’re having to retrace our steps
So back along the steep and windy track my girl strode out
I’ve no doubt she was thinking, “what the hell was that about?”
But purposefully, on she strode
And soon we hit the home road
I was full of admiration for my little cob today
Even more than usual and that is hard to say!
No matter what I asked of her nor where I said to go
She answered only yes ok, never thinking no
To thank her for her efforts as she never stopped or balked
I walked the last mile with her and happily we talked
She may just be a little cob no fancy name or breed
But she is something special, and everything I need.🥰

27/08/2019

BACK TO SCHOOL!

In school you are taught a lesson and then given a test. In life you are given a test that teaches you a lesson. (Tom Bodett)

AS it is nearly September lots of children will soon be going back to school or even starting school for the first time. Lots of new things for them to encounter, new people and new rules.

Teachers have to get to know their new class and the children have to get to know all the other children, a new routine and a new person in charge of part of their daily life.

I’ve no doubt that it takes a long time for them all to settle and gel together as a class. All those different personalities and differing ideas on how to behave.

For some perhaps it’s the first time they have heard the word ‘No’ or ‘ don’t do that’. For some it may be the first time they have had to think and do things for themselves. Getting undressed and dressed for PE, putting on shoes or tidying things away. Some may have to learn how to share and take turns.

So many different things will be expected of them, some may be overwhelmed and become emotional. Others may relish the environment and sail through unperturbed.

The teacher has to do his/her best to find out each child’s personality, abilities, strengths and weaknesses and deal with them all accordingly. No one approach will work for all the children.

Some need encouragement and gentle coaxing for them to achieve while others need to be calmed down and taught to focus.

Whatever the child presents at school is a combination of their own personality together with how they have been moulded by parents/guardians and their life thus far. The child doesn’t suddenly develop these behaviours when they arrive at school.

If they have been allowed to run riot at home, shouting and generally being out of control then this is how they will behave at school.

If they have been encouraged to listen to their elders, use manners and have consistent parameters for their behaviour they will take these skills to school.

So, why am I going on about school children when my blog is about horses?

Well, acquiring a new horse is a bit like the start of school.

You, the teacher, have to get to know this new personality. Learn their likes, dislikes and what makes them tick.
You have to use your skills to approach this horses settling in and handling in a way they will respond to best.

No one approach is suitable for all horses, each being a unique personality with its own life history.

I have had my new mare for 16 months and am still finding things out about her, and hopefully she me.

I had become so used to my old mares ways that I almost expected her to be the same. But why would she be?

She has her own personality, preferences and a whole different set of life experiences.

Like the school children she has had to get used to a new environment, new routine and new person in charge.

I, the teacher, have had to assess her, help her settle in and work out how best to help her to do as I ask.

We all need to remember that when we acquire any new horse they have a past history that shapes who they are. They way they have been trained or treated will affect their behaviour.

If they have previously been allowed to walk round while people hop up and down and then fling themselves into the saddle the horse will think this is the correct thing to do.

If they have been treated harshly and learned that ears back and offering teeth keeps people away then this is what they will do.

It is our job to spend time getting to know them and slowly teach them how WE want them to behave.

This is only achieved by being consistent in our request, having patience and encouraging the desired behaviour.

27/07/2019

WELL! HOW RUDE!

Rude: offensively impolite or bad mannered

Thankfully, most of us are brought up being shown how we should behave in given circumstances. We learn by example, following guidelines from our parents/guardians.
Horses too are taught from young by their mothers, and other herd members, how to behave in their society.

We often describe people as being well or ill mannered depending on their behaviour towards us. For example, if someone is polite, considerate and has respect for others we consider them to be well mannered. If they are impolite and treat us in a discourteous and disrespectful manner, we say they are bad mannered.

Now we can make this assumption because we are all human and therefore have the same rules and guidelines about what is rude or bad mannered, right?............................Mmm.
Just because we are the same species doesn’t mean we all put the same meaning on things.

For example, Nodding the head in UK means yes. In Iran, to agree, people dip their heads while in Saudi Arabia they move their head from side to side. Bulgaria is really confusing though, to them nodding means no and shaking means yes!

Confusing, but at least you won’t normally upset people if you get your yes and no mixed up.

BUT………….
Apparently in Greece, Russia and parts of West Africa giving someone the thumbs up sign is as rude as using your middle finger in the UK .👍 😳

The rock on symbol used by lots of rockers and youngsters is fine in the UK but in a few Mediterranean countries would land you in hot water! This gesture means “your wife is cheating on you”! 🤘 😡

Making the OK sign in parts of southern Europe means ‘ you are a zero, nothing’ but in places like Turkey it basically means you are a bottom!( Had to use polite version, not allowed to post profanity!) 👌 😲

Clearing your plate when given a meal is a sign that you have appreciated good food to us in UK. In China it is considered insulting as you are saying your host hasn’t fed you enough.
🍽 ☹️

These are just a few examples of how things differ from culture to culture.

How many of us bother to find these things out before we go to another country to make sure we don’t offend anyone? Not many I would think.

If we do any of the above, and cause upset to our guests, it’s not because we are bad mannered people but because we weren’t aware that it wasn’t the correct behaviour.

When the horse moves from their society to ours they don’t have a book on how to behave or the internet to consult for ‘tips on dealing with humans’!

They may well blunder along like our uninformed traveller causing upset without even realising.

The horse doesn’t know how to behave around humans unless he has been properly taught. We expect our horse to understand exactly what we want him to do, even to understand the words that come out of our mouth.

How many of us take the time to learn and understand our horses ‘language’?

It’s our job to look past any unwanted behaviour and see what lies behind it. Was it intentional and they know how they should behave or was it a misunderstanding or moments inattention?

By looking at the ‘why’ behind the behaviour gives us an indication as to what our reaction should be.

If it was intentional, we need to ask what caused it and how can we stop it from happening again?
For example- you lift your horse’s front foot to pick it out and the horse pulls his foot away.Was it because he wasn’t stood square and felt unbalanced or is he feeling pain somewhere that he was reacting to? By finding the trigger to the behaviour we can work on eliminating it.

If it was misunderstanding/inattention and the behaviour is not repeated when asked again it can be disregarded. If, however, the horse continues to misunderstand or is inattentive then further training is obviously desirable.

The point I am really trying to make is that at some point we all say or do things we possibly shouldn’t or wouldn’t had we known better or thought things through properly.

We give ourselves the benefit of the doubt in these circumstances and use the cover all excuse “Well, I didn’t know!”

Perhaps sometimes we need to give our horses the benefit of the doubt when they use the same excuse for themselves!