26/05/2019
BRT Bits and Bites: A while back Dee DeCily and Heidi Goodsell presented the question – (paraphrasing) is it possible to accurately identify and measure by genetic testing or otherwise the percentage of each/all contributing breeds in creating Black Russian Terrier?
I have not been able to identify a professional source capable of identifying and measuring the genetic composition by breed percentage contained in the Black Russian Terrier. We are currently stuck with the original crosses of the “Rock” breeds, and accepting the complexities of the myriad of blending and re-blending of generations of Hybrids. Being accurate any further than that is more than a stretch. However we each can enjoy and exciting challenge coming to our own conclusion by working with the available information. Why …?
So for sake of discussion, here follows my take on the question.
1. No.
2. The Hybrid(s) Factor is mind boggling.
3. Sufficient information has not been assimilated.
4. My study “The Creation of the Black Russian Terrier” is probably the closest body of information in a workable English language format but not sufficient to be truly accurate on determining a percentage breakdown.
5. To my knowledge the calculation technology is not currently available.
6. Sometime in the future maybe but only if and when there is developed
an astronomically massive canine database of all [relevant] breeds and hybrid combinations, and the artificial intelligence/resource to source, sort and evaluate. I can’t imagine the knowledge required to write a workable computer program to evaluate the information. Some readers have commented that my books contain too many pedigree “repeats”. Well > it is relative to how much one wants to be informed and the ability to organize the data. It is too large an undertaking for me.
Here are some limited questions related to determining an answer.
1. What were the breed(s) percentage contributions and ongoing changes coming through -
2. Backcrossing on the Giant Schnauzer.
3. Later generation Giant Schnauzers added-in.
4. Extensive hybrid development?
5. What was the genetic composition of each hybrid used in the breeding program.
6. How did hybrid combinations change breed percentages with each successive hybrid mating?
7. What hybrid combinations were employed by Clubs and private breeders?
8. What did each specimen used in breeding contribute genetically to each litter?
9. How many males were bred to how many females of differing genetic composition?
10. How many females were bred to how many males of differing genetic composition?
11. What new genetic structure/mix came from each litter?
and etc etc etc >
Can you visualize the growing complexity?
My understanding is that some owners who had available DNA testing done have been informed that their BRTs had [untrue] breeds in their BRT genetic background. Hello, of course they received untrue information. There were no Bassett Hounds or Irish Wolfhounds employed in any Red Star breeding experiments related to the development of the “Black Terrier Group” that I could identify. Keep in mind that the “Black Terrier Group” was the ancestral base of the Black Russian Terrier.
There was however a [single?] cross using the Brudasty Hound [Airedale x Russian Hound]. The Russian Spotted Hound [Russian Hound x English Foxhound] was also used. Ref. Vol. 1 page 57. I discovered no information on the use of Borzoi, Collie, Husky, Poodle, Bassett, Doberman, Weimaraner, Chihuahua, no terriers, et al. The Giant Black Russian Poodle maybe or not, but I could not identify it in the breeding program data.
The German Oberlander (German farm dogs x Caucasian Ovcharka 1800s) played a major early part in the creation of the Giant Schnauzer as did the Great Dane, and also probably the Old German Sheepdog (Altdeutscher Schaeferhund) and probably the Bouvier des Berge and Bouvier des Roulers ca. 1900 >, et al. And that is only in the Giant Schnauzer. This short example is presented only to point out the difficulties in identifying the composition of the Giant Schnauzer. Multiply that by the composition of the “Rock” breeds [irrefutably] identified as employed in the Black Terrier Group program. Now look at the multiplicity of crossbreeds – then the macro multiplicity of hybrids – then the developing refinements in the 1960s - 1970s – 1980s of the “Black Terrier Group” in attaining the Black Russian Terrier. Holy cow. Eh!
In Vol.1 at page 88 I note that Russian authorities [date?] stated the breed combinations to be Giant Schnauzer 30% - Rottweiler 30% - Airedale 30% all others breeds equaling 10%. With respect I refuted that premise [2012] from studying the “structures” of the breeds, crossbreeds and hybrids identified. The Moscow Waterdog played a prominent role and was barely mentioned when I began my research. When examining and comparing photos of the Giant Schnauzer crosses, the Newfoundland Dog and Moscow Waterdog I said “whoa, back the truck up and take another look”.
Two pathways of the Moscow Waterdog were identified. One was Newfoundland x East European Shepherd and the other Newfoundland x Caucasian Ovcharka. Moscow Waterdog Tiza was bred back to the Newfoundland. Then those two lines were bred together. In Vol. 2 see the pedigree of Grum and his photo at page 79 and pedigree of Ledi at page 74. On page 94 you can examine the pedigree of Ayshe 1961 and Dzhessi 1963 same parentage, different years. Look at their foundation of Giant Schnauzer, Rottweiler, Airedale and Moscow Waterdog. What breed percentages would there be in their offspring?
The 101 breed suggestion was unfounded in relation to the Black Terrier Group but might have been a number involved in the numerous “new-breed” projects at Red Star. For example the Moscow Waterdog, Moscow Guard Dog and Moscow Dog. All three fascinating stories in their own right. The Moscow Waterdog and Moscow Dog [Hybrids] were created breeds and used in the Black Terrier breeding program. The Russians tried many experimental combinations before settling on developing only the Black Terrier Group and Moscow Guard Dog Group.
Major successes with Black Terrier Group specimens breeding amazingly and arguably true to type from the very beginning. Photographs depict specimens from the first crosses being similar in format and coat, albeit with some variations, but recognizable as alike. Whatever [breed specimen] Giant Schnauzer Roy was bred to the format of his offspring was Giant Schnauzer (with some variations in coat coming primarily from the Newfoundland). Early temperament was a somewhat different story. That format was more deeply solidified when Roy’s female offspring were backcrossed on him or mated to his sons. Percentages constantly changed. If you really want a teaser to chew on, what effect on the BRT development and mix-percentage came into play with the employment of purebred Giant Schnauzers in BRT breeding programs in the 1980s? [Reference Vol 5 Moscow Families beginning Addendum at page 180 and those dastardly pedigrees – ref. Hybrid Zeman by Giant Schnauzer Jaguar at page 283].
Regardless of the “lines” and “groups” each contains genetic input from all the breeds employed in the early developmental processes. Percentages ???
OK this is getting too long. It all depends on what you want to know. There are good professional resources out there dealing with canine genetic questions. However in my opinion [I am not a geneticist] the question of breed percentages cannot currently be answered accurately. My opinion might be more like 45+% Giant Schnauzer, 25% Rottweiler, 25% Moscow Waterdog [Caucasian Ovcharka, Newfoundland Dog, East European Shepherd, Rottweiler], 5-% Airedale Terrier. The reintroduction of the Giant Schnauzer in the 1980s could have/would have/possibly altered the percentages depending on the extent of their breeding employment, geographical spread and number of offspring breeding-stock produced. Other breed(s) input were inconsequential.
If you would like a challenging mind-bender read my books. Be patient and resolved. Understand the purpose of why this information was assembled. Accept that there are duplications of pedigrees and photos – for good reason. Be cognizant of the fact(s) that the Black Terrier Group beginning was complex, experimental, and amazingly successful. Keep in mind that I did the best I could with what was available, while rooting out informed data was challenging.
Missing information may never be discovered. That includes the answer to this perplexing question. I would really like to know as well. But does it really matter? Yes I guess it does – to some of us! After many years of researching I am still searching for the elusive facts to fill in many gaps.
Every BRT is different. Astute owners look at their BRT(s) and muse “my female has the sweet temperament of the Newfoundland, the male acts a lot like a Rottweiler on fire and I have no idea what that crazy male pup of theirs is going to be. Right now he’s a loving devil on four legs.”
Volume 1 was printed in 2012. Hopefully Vol. 6 this year if health issues can be at least somewhat resolved. The 5 Volumes that are now available only through Amazon are the best treasury of information that I could compile. Hopefully someone else will pick up the flag >> moving forward.
UC Davis: Dr. Pedersen’s research interest with dogs has been targeted at two general areas: 1) Genetic diversity across all dogs and within individual breeds, and 2) the role of genetic factors in autoimmune disorders.
mailchi.mp/e90c6c689515/donandersondogbooks
amazon.com/gp/bookseries/B013VLAZLS
A fascinating exploration of the genesis of a new breed born of necessity from the ashes of World War II. A strategy was launched by a team of Russia’s foremost geneticists to undertake multi-breed experimental combinations of dogs with the goal of melding a collection of their best traits into a ...
